74. Xanthe Appleyard - Blurring the lines between business & pleasure + the art of authentic expression in the digital age.

Today in The Meadow, we’re talking all about building community, showing up online with authenticity, and creating a business that gives you true freedom with Xanthe Appleyard!

✦ The power of relationship-driven business—why prioritizing deep connections over numbers is the key to long-term success.

✦ Community isn’t just an audience—it’s about building trust and connection with people who will ride for you through every season of your career.

✦ Showing up authentically online isn’t about following trends—it’s about finding the way you naturally express yourself and making that your strategy.

✦ The biggest thing that holds entrepreneurs back isn’t lack of knowledge—it’s overthinking and fear of being seen.

✦ The limbo phase between breakdown and breakthrough is uncomfortable, but it’s where the magic happens.

✦ How social media gets to be a creative playground for making real connections and relationships.

✦ How the best social media strategy is finding your own rhythm. Business, creativity, and social media should gets to be built around what feels good to you.

Download Xanthe's free Notion Content Calendar 

Follow Xanthe on Instagram 

Xanthe's Substack, Party Friend

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Transcript

0:00

Hello everybody and welcome back to In the Meadow with Kiki. I believe that every single one of us is meant to have a slice of this life beyond what our wildest dreams can imagine. And the path to that life is hidden in the very dreams that we hold in our heart, just waiting to be created. I want the meadow to be a break in the clouds, a breath of fresh air to show you what is truly possible in this life. In the meadow, we're done letting life pass us by the sidelines, seeing the same patterns keep us in the same place month after month, year after year. My mission is to give you all the tools, resources, inspiration and ideas to light a fire under your ass to stop waiting and finally take action towards those dreams that keep you up at night. So get ready to dive into the world of manifestation, psychology, energetics, creativity and a little dash of conscious entrepreneurship so that you have all the tools that you need to step into your next level dream reality. So join me as we walk down the path of a life beyond our wildest dreams, all through the portal of the meadow. Let's go. Hello everybody and welcome back to In the Minute with Kiki. I am so happy to be here and I'm so happy you're here and welcome to another episode. Today I have the incredible Xanthe Appleyard on the show today. Xanthe is a social media and business strategist helping creative leaders grow invested communities online and off to build leisure led brands that outlast the algorithm. Through coaching, education, and in real life experiences, Xanthe empowers you to show up as your whole self online, cultivating a community who will ride for you through any season and a business that allows you the freedom to do whatever you want with your life. We talk all about Xanthe's own journey and how she got to where she is today, how to build real community and express yourself authentically in the digital age, the blurred line between business and pleasure, pouring yourself into what lights you up, how to follow your intuition, and so much more. Also, fair warning, the first nine and a half minutes of this episode, my microphone was not totally on, so the audio is not the best, but just hang in there, it gets back to normal after the first nine minutes. So just a fair warning, let's get into it. Thank you so much for being on the meta with me today. Oh my gosh. Thank you for having me. This is like so lovely. We are in your home. Thank you so much for opening up your space and being down to report here. I feel like it's so special to do it in person and specifically in people's spaces. think it's like, I don't know, it's like a new more intimate version of like really getting to be part of your world. No, totally. I feel like as soon as you came in, it's like, feel like you have, you know, such a deeper layer to me just by being in here with me. Exactly. Versus like, yeah. just on Zoom or anything like that. Totally. Oh my gosh. Well, I'm glad we could make it happen. So let's get into, just to start, if you can tell my guests a little bit about just what you do, your business, and I would love to get into your journey of how you got to where you are today. Yeah, of course. Oh my gosh. It's like so funny whenever I think about like, okay, what's my positioning statement? What am I going to reveal today? So, I mean, the gist of it is essentially I am a... community builder. am a creative, I am a social media educator, I am a honestly just human trying to fucking figure everything out along the way. But most folks kind of understand or know me in my social media marketing leadership role. And so I am a, I do education for with regards to social media, but it's always through the lens of online leadership and really supporting creatives to... kind of uncover a way of showing up on social media that actually really like enhances the creativity piece, but also builds their community through the lens of thought leadership, through the lens of essentially having an influence on their industry as a whole, through the way that they're showing up and sharing online. So really looking at social media, not as a sort of like checklist or task list or something that you just need to do as a function of your business because like we're creative entrepreneurs, like we need to sell on the internet, but more so as like this tool for the longevity of whatever you are going to be creating for the rest of your life, that these are the people that are going to rally behind you for that. And how can we create relationships that are kind of able to reach the depths that are required for people to really believe in us and trust us and stand by us through all of the different seasons that our businesses will take. And as we get into this conversation, you'll probably realize that my own business has taken many different shapes. And the only reason why I've been able to take these kind of massive leaps. in full trust with myself, but also with my community is because I prioritize those relationships. And so what I do or what I offer, what I kind of am delivering quote unquote at the time is much less relevant to how well I've connected with my people for who I am. And then I can basically do whatever I want with my life, right? Oh my God, I cannot wait to get into all of this. Like I feel like your energy and the way that you lead and the energy you bring out into all of these like dozens of. different kinds of industries, know, brands, creatives, business owners. I feel like the core is that like authenticity, like that raw, real, like through line of like trusting that like you as yourself, your truest authentic self is gonna resonate with your dream people and like the people who are meant to be in your community. Do you think there's a moment for you where you could clearly see that shift of like when you broke through with your own business and that, like, or do you think that that's something kind of like that? was always like a, you know, a gift that you had that you were able to build this out of. Yeah, that's so interesting. I think there was definitely a time where I was early days of business where I was holding back. Like there was a time where I was sort of following suit with, so our original sort of iteration of our business, which is called O'sierra. And I lead the business myself, like I'm the face of the business, but my husband runs the business with me kind of behind the scenes. And at the beginning, when we first opened our doors, essentially, we were actually both doing it together, kind of equal parts, and we were in our hometown in Canada, and we had really been positioned more as like a creative agency. So we kind of did anything and everything, but definitely within the design world, design lean. And so at that time, anyone who remembers, this is like 2017, 2018, at that time, if you were a designer, your Instagram feed like looked a certain way. Like it was like all these like very like bright. Hinks, like blob kind of like vibe, you know? Like there was like these like very like thick paint strokes, very playful. And I remember kind of trying so hard to make my feet like look that way. And any post that I was sharing at the time was very like, the caption was like three words, you know? It was just like good vibes. And so, but the interesting thing is that at that time we were working locally. And so all of our business that was coming through for our agency was people that we already knew. It was like my mom's friends. was my friends. was people I had worked with at other places. People Frank had worked with at other places. So every single person we worked with, we had a personal relationship with. So what's interesting is even you asking me that question, I didn't make this connection until this moment, but like I was bringing my whole self to the table in all of those capacities because I was working almost exclusively in person with people. And so there was really no like opportunity to hide behind the veil of a screen. This was all pre-pandemic too, right? So we weren't even working remote. We didn't have any business that was not within our local space. And then what ended up happening in terms of sort of that pivot point of when that started translating into online is when we decided to start pursuing business outside of our local sphere. And that was when I realized like, wait, what has built our business up till this point? It's very deep personal relationships. So if I want to build my business beyond this local community, I'm going to need very deep personal relationships with people who live in other countries, right? And so I started to think, well, what does that look like? And that's when I started to show up online with that in mind. And the interesting thing about it is that I wouldn't want to be creating content in any other way. Like I was not driven to show up online until I made the shift. Like until I was like, oh yeah, I get to be myself. I can just do whatever I want. I love social media, you know? And I did actually always love social media from a personal perspective. I've had a personal account forever. I did a lot of social media freelance work. Even within our agency, we were helping other businesses with their socials. So I've always been very involved in the business or like in the, I guess, like the economy of social media, I should say. But I myself for our brand never felt inspired to post until I was like, wait, wait, wait, this doesn't have to be like an agency account, right? This can be. space for me to play and express and show up and share and make friends ultimately. So yeah, I would say that was the probably like two, two, three years into business that I made that call and it changed everything. And it's so funny, like even just sitting here right now, it's just like, it feels like so much clarity of like, yeah, no, duh. Like people aren't going to connect their business with that if you don't show them. Like if you're just hiding behind like... you know, like that fear being seen, like I struggle with it so deeply still with like, you know, with my hyper curation in my account where it's like, it feels so safer to like have the inspirational, you know, where it's like for me, like that's where the podcast like saved my life. Cause it's like on the podcast, it's like, I'm not, I don't have to worry about outside metrics or analytics. Like that's just for me. No one else sees it. Like I can just show up. Um, yeah, I feel so simple. Like, yeah, obviously like you gotta show your true full self in order to have that personal connection. Do think it was like, new, like when you first started pursuing it and started showing your authentic self on your brand, like were other people doing that or was it feeling kind of like a new thing that you went for? Yeah, I'd say it was definitely, it was really interesting because I feel like what we really kind of started a movement around was within especially the smaller business, the smaller like local business space to start showing your face and actually like in a way that was quite imperfect and uncurated. And we actually did this story. We did this, I just decided randomly. was like, I'm gonna show up on stories every day for 30 days just to get used to it. That was how I was gonna enter the world of being myself online. And I ended up just saying, hey, anyone who wants to join me, let's do it. And it ended up becoming this massive movement where tons of people joined all over the world. That's how we actually grew our Instagram massively. We had so many incredible feedback, so many beautiful stories from that experience and so much feedback. that was like so many people almost being like, wow, thank you for giving me permission to do this. Because what was really interesting is at that time, so this was 20, like very, very early 2020, Jan 2020 actually. So it's been exactly five years. I just got like a notification on my phone about it. Like the like memories of like finishing the challenge. But I had a, oh sorry. It was like the time where like the personal brand, was like everyone who was writing a self-help book kind of vibe. Like it was like the like Glennon Doyle. It was the Jenna Kutcher. It was the, oh my gosh, what's the other one? Amy Porterfield. Yeah. So all of those like kind of like course creators who like showed up as like faces of their brands, but there was definitely, it was the curated authenticity, not the actual like, this is how my messy house is and this is just how I'm going to show up today kind of vibe. So it was interesting because there was a really big drive and like obviously very It was very clear within the marketing world that to be successful, you had to show your face. But there was not really a lot of conversation of like, what if I don't have a media team to make sure my face looks perfect all the time? And so I feel like we really bridged the gap within that conversation, especially within like the creative entrepreneur arena, because so many of us hide behind our work because we think that our work is what it gets us clients, right? But it's not. At point, like it's our personality. And so it's kind of like, how do we, how do we... marry these two things wherein like I am providing a service and I'm human. And I want to work with other humans who like me for that, right? So. And so how has the evolution been like for you since that challenge in five years ago? Because like you've gone through an entire pandemic, the state of society completely changed. So I don't know what's like, I feel like it's like a deep question that's a little heavy, but like, yeah, what's your, your. Yeah, it's so interesting. Well, I mean, you know, what's been so interesting is like we've seen this really kind of dramatic, like up and down of like how people feel like relationships are being made in the business world. what was, you know, original networking was go out to events, go and hang out with people, be in person, all of that, right? And then there was like social media, which took off where it was like, wait, I don't even have to go to the events. I can just post and I can meet all these people. But that was always like, I think there was still that disconnect of like, I have all these people who see me, but I don't have a lot of people who know me kind of thing. And then within the pandemic, that... drove the digital landscape beyond what it ever had been before because it was just like commerce happens online now. Yeah. We don't even need a storefront. We don't even need in-person connection, but we need connection still. Yeah. We just don't need in-person. And so then there was this whole kind of uptick of the digital world and everyone getting a membership and everyone being online and our workouts were online and our, you I called my mom on a Zoom call, like all that kind of stuff, even if they live around the corner. But then there was this like complete shift again where everyone was like, Ew, that was so bad for us. We all hate our lives. We've been trapped inside. Let's all go outside." And then it was in-person events, like all of this kind of stuff. So it's been really interesting because I feel like now we've almost like leveled out where I think people, which I actually think is an interesting, it would be very interesting to actually like study what is happening here. But we've leveled out where I think the lean is still much more digital. And I think people do appreciate the in-person opportunity and appreciate the in-person community. But I think that we can now never go back from realizing how much opportunity lies in the digital space as well. So it's so completely like it's ever changed the landscape of local business because a lot of local businesses that really thrive have an online element. Yeah. Right. And it's like noticing that and figuring out how can we take the experience that we're offering in person or the experience that we want to be having in person and translate that into the online space is basically what every business in any capacity is thinking at any given time. But then there's also still this majority landscape, which is the folks who have their businesses solely online, which was a product of the pandemic, but we never really went back, right? So now the creative economy especially is massive compared to what it was. I feel like it'd be so interesting. don't obviously have this data. It'd be so interesting to know how many people started a creative business during the pandemic because so many people were out of a job. They didn't have the whatever that in-person job had happened to have been and there was so much pursuit of like passion like of like well I'm just gonna do the thing I've always wanted to do because like maybe the world's ending you know and now it's really interesting because I think we've kind of swung on this other direction where what I'm seeing within the creative space is that people feel almost like indebted to social media in a really negative way and they feel really resentful to the fact that like wow we pursued our dreams to build this business online and now if I don't show up online I can't have my dream yeah and so we're meeting this really interesting like discussion now where it's like how can we make this practice or this process of being online and being kind of chronically on the internet as as Recognizing and accepting that it's a requirement. And so can we make it awesome? Can we love it? Can we do it in a way that feels really good? And that's where it's almost like we're coming back to this feeling of like what can what feels best? Knowing people deeply. Yeah, how can we do that through our platforms, right? and I think that like your whole like everything you're about is a testament to just like the power in that one person by one person connection and not only looking towards like the viral videos and like blowing your Instagram by like a hundred thousand followers and how at the end of the day it's like you can have a small community and it be mighty too like what are your thoughts on just like what we should be you know chasing and searching that's outside the analytics that obviously analytics are a part of it but yeah just curious in your thoughts of Yeah. mean, I was like, I'm like, wait, wait, wait. There's so many things I can say about that. Yeah. think that so, okay, let's talk about this. I think there's a few levels. So I think the first layer to that is like, can we see the same level of success with a small community as we do with a big community? Absolutely. Yes. Because it's always going to be about death. Yeah. And it's always going to be about also your business model, point blank. Do you need a big community? Most people don't. Most people have the amount of followers that they could not fulfill that number of orders in a lifetime. Yeah, right. If you think about that, you're like, oh, I am a business that even, for example, like a business who does like one on one coaching, right. And then you have 800 followers and you're like, that's not enough. Like, when are you going to coach 800 people? Like if you're doing one on one, you know what I mean? Like, so it's just like, I think so much we think like more is always more because we're not seeing what we want to see from the followers that we have. And usually that's where I'm where I would identify right away is like, if you don't feel like the number of followers that you have is enough. What? is happening that those people aren't converting or what is happening that those people are invested. Like, so it's kind of this idea of having an invested community versus having just like an audience. And I think that the thing that's really interesting there is that when you have an audience, a lot of times more is actually not more because you're spread more thin, right? So you'll notice that there's a lot of people who have big communities where they there's almost like this massive gap between them and the people. So they might launch something and they might be really views as to like, didn't people buy this or why did this thing flop or why did it not do as well as I wanted? And it's because like, you're not in the mud with them. Like you're not there having the conversations, having the dialogue, understanding. And so I actually usually tell clients that I work with within the social media space is like, if you have followers below people, like You should know every single one of them. Like you should be sending a message to every single one of that, that within reason, of course, that you, you know, want to connect with them and think that there's someone who you could have a good combo with. But when we get to this scale where we're in the tens or, you know, multi, um, five figure, whatever, beyond followers, there are certain things that we just don't have the bandwidth to do. And so we have to kind of be hyper conscious of like, how many deep relationships and deep conversations and deep connections am I having on a daily basis and recognize that the metrics that matter are not the views. not followers, they're not even new followers. Like it's not growth. Like the only thing that I would recommend measuring or that I even pay any attention to is comments and DMs because I want to know what people are actually thinking. I want to hear what they're actually thinking because that allows me to create more for them. It allows me to understand where they're at. It allows me to like have a dialogue. And so it's really looking at like metrics that allow you to receive feedback. Real feedback, not feedback that's like hypothetical of like, I think they liked it, but actual feedback of like, here's why they liked it. And here's what this them do that allows you to continue to create in this like really beautiful feedback loop And so we can have that exact same relationship Regardless of how many followers we have and if I was to actually count Realistically if I was to actually count the number of people who I'm in regular conversation with would probably be under 100 people and that's out of an account that's like 35k or whatever. Yeah, whereas there are lots of people who may have 500 followers then they could still be in conversation every day with a people. So it's the same. The ratio is just different but the actual quality is the same. That is so inspiring. I feel like it's just like I mean I think I'm like processing in real time just realizing how much of a safety net it is like for me and like people in my world of just like it's the safety of like oh well I'm not there yet like I need them any more followers and it's truly just I mean hiding of like what I can do and what other people in my world can do now and how to foster those connections that community because it's like yeah he said it's not gonna change like once you get more followers it might be even harder to like keep up with. that, yes, that is so inspiring. Yeah, I mean, okay, I would love to get a little bit as well just to hear more of your backstory as well. Like I feel like we went right into all the juicy socials and stuff. But just for my viewers to like get to know you a little bit more, I would love to hear just like your journey of like what brought you, you know, to leave Canada, how you ended up in Los Angeles and kind of just a little more of the evolution of your business. And now you were saying how you were marketing agency in the past. But yeah, you could give us a little summary. Oh my gosh. Okay. I know it's funny. I like to feel like I almost like avoid the backstory sometimes because it's so long. Yeah. parts to it, but and I love to just get to the juice. okay, so Cole's notes is I'm from Canada. Me and my partner met there. That's where we began our business. Ontario, Canada is the like that's the province we're from town called Hamilton outside of Toronto. And we live there for I mean, I lived there my entire life. I went away to college for a very I had a short stint in my town away. But other than that, we I had lived there my whole life. And so we started to start we started to think about our the future of our business, the future of for our sort of like life around basically as soon as we began the business together because we had both been working for other people. And as soon as we had our own business, it was like, wait, we don't have to stay in this town. We don't have to, you know, basically adhere to anyone else's schedule or expectations or anything like that. And so what do we really want from our life? And we started to think about it and we ended up what we actually landed on, which was interesting as we had landed on like we want to move to California. Mostly because I personally was obsessed with LA. was like the girl that had like my little like posters all over my room as a kid was like everything from like when I was a kid. don't know how old I was, like California, the OC, you know, Laguna beach, like all of that, like to me. And you have to understand like living in like a kind of like small city in Canada, like there's, couldn't imagine something more different, you know, like we didn't have a beach. We'd have an ocean. We didn't have sun all year round. Like I'd never seen a palm tree like this. Like, you know, I've been to Florida a couple of times, but it wasn't like that. And I had never even been to California. And was actually like right at that time, close to the time that we were doing that challenge that I was mentioning like five years ago, that we ended up doing a road trip down to California. And we were like, let's just go and see and like get a feel for it. We actually originally thought we were going to go to San Diego. We were like really set on that for some reason, even though like neither of us had ever been. And we ended up going, I ended up coming for a conference actually. So I ended up doing like a conference in Palm Springs. We ended up visiting San Diego. We visited LA. And that was when we were like, wait, wait, wait, maybe it's LA. And then we drove back and we're driving back across the states towards Canada in the winter, it was March, and it was also happening in March 2020. And so the border was closing because of the pandemic, lockdowns, all that. And it was like, we were like, okay, well, I guess like that dream is not happening tomorrow. And everything is kind of like up in the air, don't really know what's happening next, whatever. And we had also just at the same time, like a couple of weeks prior, we had gone twice in a very short We had gone to Mexico, we'd gone to Tulum and we had been like really just taken with it. Like we really enjoyed it the time there. We loved the the energy of it. Like we just it's interesting now because like I look back and I'm like I don't I don't I can't pinpoint exactly what drew us to it because it's so so so different from anything else that I like it's so different from LA so different from Canada but I guess maybe that's why right like yes there's something about it that felt very like maybe this is something we should explore like a nudge I guess that's the best way I could put it and so So, kind of like... like kind of like flippantly to be honest, we were just like, oh, well, we had some friends who had bought property there. Like, let's just like start looking and see if there's anything like it's a pandemic. I can do nothing better to do. Let's just like window shop, you know? And so we just started to have some conversations with people, realtors and stuff and seeing some spaces. And like all of a sudden it was like this one property came across our desk and it was like, it was like hideous. Like it was like everything was like it like, and when I say hideous, I mean like it wasn't like aesthetic. You know what mean? It wasn't like it was like a finished, like beautiful ready. to move in type of place. Like it needed a lot of work. It was quite like, like dated. was going to need like a lot of stuff ripped out, rebuilt, um, paint job, all of this. And so weirdly though, we were just like, this is our project. Like, this is it. Like we need to pursue this. And what's interesting about that is like we, again, it was just, it was so quick and it was immediately like, were both like, oh, okay. Like we have to figure out how to make this happen. And so we ended up doing it. We ended up buying it. And we ended up, um, again, we kind of bought it with the pers- with the idea at the time is was pretty early pandemic still that we were like, yeah, I'm sure that soon we'll be able to travel. We can just rent it out as an Airbnb and spend our like, it can be a vacation spot for us or whatever. Even like Frank's parents were like, you know, maybe they would want to use it. whatever we kind of were just thinking of it as like a kind of fun investment for the future for us. And also we really had wanted to share spaces with our community. That was something that we had always thought in our inner when we started thinking about the vision for our business, it was like, what is what builds in person community best is shared memories. And so how can we create a space where maybe we're not there with you? but you can experience the space and we can experience the space and then together we can have a shared memory of that place in a way. And so that was really enticing to us. And so we were like, let's move forward with this. And so we ended up doing that and we ended up, but what ended up happening was that, no, you could not travel again. And we were like, well, we're not going to just sit this place empty for until we're able to travel again. So we decided to move and stay there because we were like, we're not going be able to be flying back and forth, obviously. And so let's just go and stay. And so we ended up packing up our whole life in Canada and moving to Mexico and we live there until for two years and then eventually we still always had the plan to move to LA but we were in pursuit of the visa and so we did that and we got our LA visa or like our LA visa our visa to work in America and then we moved to LA, sold the place in Mexico, moved to LA and yeah we've still pursued that like that space concept in other ways but That was a really interesting chapter. And it was really interesting because the closing of that, sorry, see, it's a long story. I just like go and go. You're doing a great job at doing it. The closing of that chapter of the deciding to move to or coming up on moving to LA and then at that time also deciding to release the, what we called it the swim club. So was like our, the property in was, came along with like a very intense, like what I would consider to be like. an ego journey of like really releasing and dropping a lot of stuff that I had tied up a ton of my self-worth into, which included our full-scale creative agency, which had multiple staff, had multiple like team members, on trajectory to, I mean, it was doing well, but we were not doing well. Like as leaders, we were not happy. Like it was really, really unfulfilling in, not because I didn't love the work or love the clients, but because it wasn't right. Like it just wasn't the right fit. And you know, when you're trying to fit like a square hole into a, what do you call it? A square peg. to a circle hole, circle round hole. Anyways, when you try to force something that doesn't fit, it's, you can feel it. And the weight was really, really, really heavy. so right at that time, we dismantled the whole agency. We sold that place in Mexico. We moved to LA and, and that was when I kind of stepped into the like, I know what my path is meant to be. And I need to claim that even though I have to let go of a bar, like a very big part of who I thought I was supposed to be. And so that's. how LA began and I mean that was almost three years ago now. Wow, it's so inspiring. I like that like already answered my question. My next question was going to be um yeah like pinnacle moments of trusting your intuition and what that led you to so I feel like that's a big one of like just trusting you know that part of it. I mean like my whole resume is just that like it's like oh we should buy House of Mexico, move to Mexico. Okay let's go. We should like apply for our US visa. Okay let's do that. We should ditch our entire agency. and start fresh with a model that feels a lot more better. Okay, let's do that. We should move to LA. Let's do that, right? Like we're kind of always in this constant, like what is going to feel... When it hits, hits. And when it doesn't hit, it's got to go. Like I'm just very, very cutthroat in that way where it's like if something feels like resistance or... I guess resistance is the wrong word. When something feels like misalignment, I'm dropping it. Like I don't spend a second in that. I examine it and I say, this resistance? Do I need to work through something? Yes, no. Or is this misalignment? And then it's like, as soon as that answer is like, yeah, this isn't working, then it's like, let's just change it. Because we have that freedom. And I'm like really always gonna be jumping right into that. Do you think, I mean, I feel like that also is symbolism of just like all of the things that are going on in your life and your business is like, how do you keep yourself grounded? I feel like you have so many different facets of your businesses, multiple, you know, like, I don't know you wanna share a little bit of like the different projects that you have under your belt. Yeah, I think it seems... more intense from the outside. But I guess like if I could summarize, so we have the leg of the business that is the, like I said, social media educator kind of online leadership piece. And that is education. That includes, so it's education. It's all of my content. I have a sub stack that I write through that. We have our podcast. That's kind of like a little bit of lifestyle stuff as well. It's a kind of the podcast is where you learn about everything. We talk about everything together. is on the podcast with me, but you won't see him like on my social. So that's me kind of running all of the agency side, I call it the agency side, even though it's not an agency anymore, but the marketing business, let's say. And then we also have the Airbnb's. so that is the, so it's called Layover. And we currently, we have one Airbnb that's in Mexico City and that one, we don't own the property, we sublet. So we're able to sublease, like there's a landlord and we sublease and rent the space, but we designed the interior and all of that. And it's like, it's yeah, it's been really, really fun, beautiful journey. We have some friends in Mexico City who support us with that too. And then we also own a property in Canada. So when we sold our place in Mexico, the original one in Mexico, we then reinvested that into a property in Canada, which is like a cottage on the East coast. So it's like our equivalent of like, I don't know, very, very small town, but like Cape Cod vibes. Like we're really close to that area. Like that's the coast. And so we've been renovating that. It's not ready for rent yet, but this summer it will be. So we spend time there and get that ready. And that's part of it. So layover is kind of the Airbnb side and Frank, that manages that entirely on like a day to day. he manages all the contractors, all the renos, all the guests checking in in Mexico city and all of the folks that, you know, we collaborate with in that capacity. So I don't really have to think about that. And we don't actually have to market it at all, which is amazing. So it has like a landing page on socials, but it doesn't require any marketing because Airbnb, it just, the bookings just come through. So that's pretty hands off for me. The only part that then becomes like when that starts to become more my realm is when we're doing the decorating. So when we go into Nova Scotia in the summer, I'll be involved a lot more because we'll be sourcing furniture, we'll be decorating space and getting content and all that kind of stuff for the listing and all that. But yeah, so there's that side of it. And then the other kind of fun project that we've engaged with. on more of like a, guess like, yeah, it's not like our own business, but we have been kind of joined in on a wine shop in Silver Lake called Camp. And so we are like partial partners in that. So Frank works in the shop quite a lot and does like that stuff. I support with marketing, but then there are two owners who do the brunt of it and who have like were the original founders and stuff. But they were a local shop that we loved and supported and spent a lot of time visiting with. them out with content for a really long time before and then they asked us to come on in a bit more of an official capacity and so we've been supporting with that too. So I think that's everything. Did I miss any? No, I think for my knowledge, think that's all. I think you were breaking it all down because I feel like it's like I see it from an outside perspective and it's like, oh my gosh, it just feels like to hear the story and like the nitty gritty of it. I feel like it's just so inspiring of like, yeah, just following your interests and like things that are lighting you up and like, yeah, you know, going with it. Yeah. And I think like one thing that I really like, if you are in the space You're like I want to be doing a lot of projects I want to have my hands on things the thing that I've found really helpful Is that I don't do all the tasks I do are the same. Yeah, I just do them for like different businesses sometimes, you know So it's like I'm never like I'm never like all of sudden randomly like doing something that's completely out of my purview or that I haven't done in a while because I'm always like within my area of expertise and I'm always staying within my skill set and within my lane Yeah, which is why it's really beautiful for Frank and I to be able to have this business together Because everything that's in his lane he gets to stick to and then whenever it's time for me to tap in I will but I don't look at as I have my hands in a bunch of businesses. I look at it as I'm Zanthe, I wake up and I do what I need to do. And so I have tasks, but they are all, they all work symbiotically. I don't have like one day's for this business, one day's for that business. Like, no, it all fits. And I do a little bit of everything every day. And I think for me, the root of it all is just creativity. And so I just wake up and I create and I see what comes of that basically. So incredible. feel like you're all, it feels like such a testament to just like the power of like that more masculine structure and like that, like, you know, container that you create for yourself. To give space for your creativity to flourish like I don't have any thoughts on Yeah, I mean all about that. I think it's super interesting because I definitely reject I reject structure and yet I am a very Ritualistic person. Yeah, so I don't like to give myself any time like time to me if I could live a world without like in a world without clocks That would be the dream like I have no interest in what time it is thinking how long something takes I really do my best to like make it so that my the way that I think about it when I think about my vision of my life is like, do not want to feel like my calendar's relevant. Like I want to feel like I can just do whatever I desire to do in the moment. Of course though, I trust myself to choose the things that are moving the needle. And that's been a really long time coming. Like there's been a lot of time in my life where I've gone the complete opposite direction and I have obsessed of meticulously booking myself for five minutes here, five minutes there, like every single hour of my day accounted for because I didn't trust myself to make the right choice if I wasn't forcing myself to fit somewhere. So what's been interesting is that I think where I use that masculine is in knowing my intentions and knowing my purpose. I know that I call it the grab bag method. And it's basically like I have a bucket of things that I do. And if it's in the bucket, I can choose any of them versus like, I'm not just going to like maybe yeah, randomly I'll wake up and be like, okay, today I feel like, you know, doing like, I don't know, going fucking kite surfing. Unlikely that that will happen. But if I did want to do that, I would do that. And so I do follow my desires, but I also just trust that they're kind of always in alignment with my And if I start to feel like I'm stretching that or I start to feel like oh like, know, for example, like I do I do have I do have a tendency to get distracted like anybody right and I can notice like, okay Let's say, you know, have a day to myself where I intended to Do a bunch of writing I intended to do a I don't know like something I had like tasks, right? Like I had things that I really wanted to get done I had intentions, but I don't get to those things Because I get distracted by something else or I get pulled in the direction I end up spending a lot of time on something. I don't look at that as like, wow, I fucked up. Where's the time gone? I look at that as like, what did that kind of weird side quest tell me about what I A, need, what I B, I'm avoiding, or what I'm C, fixating on because I think it's going to fix a problem that I'm not willing to admit that I have, right? And I know that like, I'm always just like really looking for clues and information. So I try to avoid structure honestly as much as possible, but I try to to intention and purpose and inquiry as much as I can as well. That is so inspiring. I really relate to you in that sense of just wishing there was no clocks. I feel like, yeah, I mean, like two parts of it. Like, do you think that like the simplicity behind knowing your why and your mission so deeply in your core being something that like is the engine that kind of keeps you like contained? Yeah, like I think I have a really, really strong internal compass of like where I'm going and what I'm building towards and what I desire. But I assign that on a very short-term scale, which I think makes it much more digestible. like I know what I'm trying to be doing this quarter, and I'm not fussing about what happens beyond that. Like I'm two steps ahead. I'm always looking, you know, two steps ahead, but not 10. So good. I needed to hear that so bad. Oh my gosh. It's such a relief, right? Because I if you think too far ahead, it's like, that's so fucking daunting. Where do I begin? Right? And so I like to look at the high level. I love to vision. vision board, I'm always looking at like I'm visioning for things that I can arrive to within the next year that that's like beyond that I'm not gonna I'm only setting myself up for failure. things change you know it's like you know like you look back at last year's and like wow I wasn't expecting that. Yeah and also like instant gratification is a thing like I don't know wait. I'm gonna plan for what I know can happen within the next 12 months and I'm gonna accomplish it and then I'm just gonna keep doing that over and over again and I think you asked me you know about taking big leaps and about kind of making these really like intentional or not even intentional I guess like I don't know what word you said, intuitive decisions. And it's because I'm not thinking too far ahead. Like I'm looking at like, okay, is this going to serve me in the version I want to be right now for the next 12 months? Yes. Okay, great. Let's go. Is it going to potentially harm me in the future? Not that I can tell. Okay, we're good. Right? But you never know. So you just have to try. And I feel like that just gives you such a permission slip to just like follow the flow and like, it's so easy to get so heady and so just like hit the brakes and just stop yourself. Cause then you're like, well, oh my gosh, in two years from now, or this, you know, it's like, And then we get so in our heads that it just like all of the energy that we have to pour into it We want to create just gets kind of like it fizzles out I feel like you know Totally like the act the inaction piece and like the overthinking piece is like so so so so so Probably the number one killer of dreams, right? It's like the thing that is stopping us from having what we want is just thinking too much about it Yeah, and then like losing the momentum like what would be in the simplest terms like what would be advice that you give like you know entrepreneurs and like creatives brand owners how to push through that. Cause I feel like, know, creatives and people who are, have high standards have a really big problem with that. Yeah, totally. I mean, I think it's super interesting because it's like, what is the, I mean, it depends on every person. Everyone makes decisions in different ways. And I think that I always have to be really conscious of the fact that like I am a sacred generator. I'm fucking jumping all the time. Like that is my innate design. I will always act that way. And I know that that's not the case for everybody, but everybody makes a decision in a different way, but it does eventually click. Like no matter how long it takes you, that hit will come. A lot of times we don't trust it. And if we can just trust the hit and be like, that was it. You know it, like you already know it. I know you have this in you. Like whoever is listening to this, I know you know. You know when the hit like hits, right? And then you're like, but sometimes we're like, oh, but I couldn't. Oh, but this, oh, but that. It's like when the hit comes, don't make excuses and do something about it. And so I think that one of the things that, this is not very concise advice, but basically like what I notice is that I don't make my... Decision like I don't make my intuition something that I can talk myself out of So I'm not gonna be the person who says But what about this? But what about that? But what if it goes wrong? But what if but what if but what if but also I can see myself through that thought process of like the next part of that, which is I'll be fine, I'll be fine, I'll be fine. So I think what often happens is we think, we immediately are like, I have the idea, I want to do the thing. And then we're like, but what if it doesn't work out? And then we're just like, well, but what it doesn't work out? And then we just get stuck there. But I would say, I want to do the thing, but what if it doesn't work out? I'll be fine. And then I keep going. Oh my God, that's such good advice. That is so great. Like genuinely thinking like, yeah, I I mean, I've had someone also give me advice of just like, yeah, well you could like, and it sounds counterintuitive, but like thinking about like the worst case scenario, whatever. feeling like, like, Dorsky's narrative isn't that bad, know? It's never that bad. I know exactly. I really do appreciate that practice, for sure. And I think it's also just, Truly like almost like the negative visioning of just like realizing like what's worse is not living up to your potential and like letting another year Go by where you're not, you know, yeah, I'm I I There's someone who I is in my community who I've collaborated with I've supported her with stuff. She supported me with stuff. name is Maya Do you know Maya? Maya Ben is her Instagram. Okay, you'll you'll be obsessed with herself. I know for sure She's very aligned with some of the stuff that you talk about but she has a I did a practice like one of the things that she encouraged you to do was like to talk about, it's like you basically like kind of put your vision forward and then you say like, what will my life look like if I do? What will my life look like if I don't? And it's like that contrast is so intense sometimes that you're like, there is no other option to go forward, right? But I think with that, with what you said about the worst case scenario thing, I think it's really interesting because I do think that we may almost over fear certain things, right? So if you were to like listen to me right now and you were to go through the worst case scenario and you were to be like, no, that's horrible. I would be like, why? What is it about that worst case scenario that feels so bad? And so I think there's a lot of excavation within that too. And that's something that I've noticed too, is it's like, you won't get to the I'll be fine part unless you know what it is you're afraid of or why you're afraid of And then the deeper subconscious blocks and what's really limiting you from taking that action that you're not going to see until you ask yourself those uncomfortable questions. I almost think that it's like, maybe the question isn't what's the worst case scenario, but what's the threat? Right? And I think that they're always asked like, what's the threat, which is like the threat of doing it, what happens, what's the challenge, what does it bring up in you? But then also what's the risk of not? Right? And when we know the risk of not, and we know the threat of doing, we can easily see. where our brain is like kind of fucking with us. Yeah. You know? Oh my gosh. So many little tangents I to go on. mean, one big thing that's coming up for me right now is just how I think personal limiting belief that's stopped me a lot has been just this fear of like, what if the business I want to build is going to take too much work and I'm not going to be able to handle it or whatnot? And think that, again, your story is so inspiring where it's like, yeah, you created so many different things and you've kept yourself in alignment where making more money doesn't necessarily mean it has to be more work. You know, it's like if you have the right business model, And if you have the right vision and you set it up the right way But yeah, don't know if you have any thoughts on that belief of like, you know that can hold people back sometimes totally I get stuck in that sometimes too in the sense that I think there's a lot of things that I want that I've only seen done one way and it looks like a way I don't want to do it. Yeah, What I call to myself up to with that is just like, okay, let's do a different. Yeah, I'm like, okay, let's have it but let's make it look different Let's be the version where it's not that way. Yeah, and I think it can be really scary because you don't have proof like it's It's really easy to look for proof and to make that be like, okay, well, they did it so it's possible, but they did it in a way don't like, so then I don't want to do it or I'm scared to do it or it's too much. Instead of saying like, well, they did it and it's possible and they did it on their way, but I'm going to prove that it's possible to do it my way. And I think that's definitely like, it sounds like simple when you say it out loud, but it's not right. It's like, you have to like really, really like get clear on what you are willing to do. And here's the thing. This is, this is like, I feel like maybe it's kind of a take, but I don't think there's anything hard innately about work. There's certain things that come naturally to us and certain things that don't. And if we work at the things that come naturally to us, it doesn't feel like work. And if we always do this shit that's hard, that doesn't come naturally to us, sorry, then it's always hard. And I think that that was a huge lesson for me. Like in the last even three years is I have stripped back my business to include only things that are natural to me and feel fun and awesome. And I work all the fucking time. don't know that I, like I probably in a day, like the amount of hours truly quantified that I'm not working, are probably like, like in, in, it would probably amount to what people would think is hustle culture. my work is like sitting and thinking. Like my work is like fucking around on my notion dash and make it look pretty. Like I'm doing stuff that I genuinely want to do. And so it doesn't feel like work unless it doesn't feel hard. And yet I'm still making money and I'm still having clients and I'm still enjoying the fucking ride, you know? But there was a time where I was working the exact same amount of hours and I felt burnt out, drained, resentful, hated it and wasn't making. as much money because I was so fucking stressed. It was so difficult to continue that cycle of even calling more people into my business because I didn't really want them because it was too hard. my god. And then like pushing it like no more please. Literally. You're like no more please. Whereas I'm like I can handle this. got it. Like let's go. I'm not afraid to be working. I'm afraid to be working. I'm not afraid. I'm not afraid to be working. I refuse to be working on things that don't feel good. Oh my gosh. That is so so inspiring. I think yeah, I mean obviously we don't get too into it, but like I genuinely think that there There's so much magic that comes down from the breakdowns. And I don't know if you could explain a little bit what that moment was like for you. Was that like when you were leaving behind the old agency? I think that people don't realize when you're in the thick of it how the other side is so close. Totally. And I mean, think that the thing that we... Yeah, I'm so, so, so happy to speak to this because there was a gap. So basically when we dropped our agency and then we moved to LA, there was about a six month gap between fully dismantling the agency. and then actually moving to LA. And then even from there, there was a little bit of extra time wherein we were still kind of wrapping up agency projects. had kind of basically, we had like segwayed from agency to me being like a full-blown social media educator and strategist from just doing marketing strategy done for you for about that year when it was just me and Frank in the business. We didn't have our staff anymore. And that year was so, so, so challenging. It was like the sadness and the grief of letting go of our Of our staff. It was then the basically just you know, kind of Not sure what we wanted to offer not sure if we could make our business viable Offering the marketing stuff because we knew that like the demand was there people are asking and we were enjoying that work So we kept doing it but it was very much like whatever came came like we weren't marketing it We weren't advertising it because we really didn't know like how to speak to it or what the transformation was or like what we're was even gonna go it was just kind of like what can we Reasonably do an offer right now that people seem to want and so we were working with a lot of clients who'd work with in the past or we were working with folks who were kind of like The interesting thing was they were very drawn to our socials because I never let that slide because that was always the thing that I like loved, you know? And so we were still attracting a lot of people. anyways, with that said, it was not enough to make a business out of. And it was not something that I felt was bringing me closer to that, like feeling of fulfillment and joy that I wanted in the day to day. But there was parts of it that I did really enjoy. And so anyways, basically that was like a tangent. That's like not even relevant. But basically within this limbo year, had dismantled the agency. were kind of like Hanoi. what we're going to offer. Randomly, we're accepting work, but didn't really know how to promote or talk about it. Weren't making enough to make ends meet. Definitely weren't making enough to relocate to LA. We were in massive debt from our agency because we had not been able to sustain the payroll expenses because we were kind of half in, half out of like letting clients go, but still needing the staff to finish up the work. So we ended up taking it alone. Major debt. We ended up making the decision that like fall after this limbo year to then to then sell the swim club so that we could pay off that debt and kind of start fresh. And that was like that, that whole year of just like, holy fuck. It felt like everything we had worked for was gone. Like it felt like everything that we had held as our identity, which was our agency, which was the space, which was even just like being a confident business owner. Like, you know, it just felt like, what the fuck do I have to offer right now? Like I felt like so stripped down. And the interesting thing is that a lot of people don't know this. Like I was still showing up online. I was still like doing client work and I, I've shared about it now much more. But I think that the really interesting thing about that whole period and like it feeling so I never felt like we weren't gonna figure it out. Yeah I just was like we have it we're like I could accept that we were in a transition phase and I could accept that It didn't look exactly how I wanted it to look but it was around that time that I started really grounding back into like What is my vision? Where am I going? Like I knew that I had been able to pull myself into every single scenario that I had been in previously I had kind of cast that forward and I had arrived at it. And so I was just like, back to basics, let's fucking figure it out. And so that was when I started to really dig into, okay, what do I need? I started reinvesting in myself too, in my business. Like I started looking at like mentors, I started looking at like programs and things like that, I could just learn skills that would help me more so because the education space was new, right? And I did it I pivoted fully. And it was like that first launch of my first education program that I was like, oh, this is it. Like, oh my God, this is Like this brings everything together that I've wanted that I've already been doing But I just didn't realize that this was Like I just didn't I didn't I almost like I didn't even have the capacity to see that this was an option for me until I had shed all of that other stuff, right? So beautiful so important if these stories are so crucial for people to hear because it's like when you're in the thick of it and like You don't have that like, you know community or people around you that can like, you know share their own stories I think it's like yeah, it's such That's such beauty in the breakdown that brings you to the breakthroughs and like you said like having shed all that wasn't serving that limbo of space where like I think that the one thing that kept you going was that belief of like Yeah, it's gonna work out Totally and I think that belief is like something that's just super interesting and I don't really know like I wish I could quantify it and like I here's how you believe in yourself, but I guess like really always have just had this like Something more is coming something more is coming and then it started to happen and I was like, oh I was right Okay, let's keep going and then if like that just like solidifies your belief for the next thing where it's like it's all trust Yeah, think looking at our younger selves I feel like for me at least helps so much with just like every new chapter that I'm in and that was a question for later on but yeah would would be your advice for your for your younger self if you Give her a brief little message Honestly like to trust that trust that you're meant for more like you hear that in your mind that you are meant for more that you are that you there's something out there for you You know that you feel that You've woken up feeling that and thinking that every single day of your life and you've been like why do I why am I in this like Basement in this town that feels like I don't fit You're gonna get out. Yeah, you know that so trust that and let it happen So beautiful So nice, just to circle back to yeah on this topic. I feel like my question was like, what do you think the biggest thing that is that it gets in the way of up and coming entrepreneurs, specifically with showing up online. Yeah, what would be? Well, I think we spoke to it a little bit, but I do really feel that it's overthinking, but it's not just, it's overthinking. I wish I could have a really concise way of saying this. What is the whole feel back from showing up? I think everyone has their own shit. Like everyone has their own shit of why they don't want to be seen. And it's so much deeper than I don't know how to create this content or I want my feed to look good or any of that shit. Like it's so deep, right? There's something that is living within all of us that is telling us that we're tying up our relationship to our visibility with something that it really doesn't have anything to do with, but we need to kind of unpack what that is if we feel fear around it. And I think at the same time, it's a... understanding maybe. Like honestly, this is again, I'm like, I've never like put the voice to this before, but I do feel like in a way people have a great, great, great understanding of the impact that they can make. And I think they're afraid of what will happen if they start to do it. And it's that fear like you kind of said about like, well, this is going to be hard or this is going to mean something that I'm not ready for. And I think that that's it's almost like we see and we witness other people making an impact and we think I want to do that. I want to do that. I can do that. We know we can do that, which is why we feel called to it. And it's also why we don't. Yeah. I don't know. What do you think? Yeah, I completely agree. feel like it's like also that deep core wound that like everyone struggles with, I think women specifically struggle with like that worthiness wound of like, who am I, you know, to Like or what am I like? Yeah, I don't know. It's I think I'm looking for the answers and like, you know that again that deep um, like you said It's like it's every it's personal for each person and I think it has to do with just like that Just looking at it, you know, like really really being real and like letting yourself feel really fucking uncomfortable. Um Yeah, and I think it's really weird that I like that you said that the worthiness wound But I think what really is so interesting about that is that we are almost always holding I'm not good enough and I'm too much. Mmm, and it's like how to we meet that, like, know, right? It's like, we sit with that and it's like, of course it's hard. Like, of course that makes it really difficult and challenging for us to show up because we're like, either I'm absolute garbage and nobody cares at all, or I'm going to really go so hard that people won't be able to handle me. And I think some people maybe lean one way or the other more, but we all have a little bit of both inside, right? And I think that feeling of... And it's interesting because I think they're actually very tied, right? Where we think if we be our whole self, we will almost like, if we show up as our whole self, it's almost like then they'll know that I'm weird or then they'll know that I'm not good enough or then they'll know that like I have this past that I'm ashamed of or whatever, right? And it's like, but then it's also like we are so, so stifled by them not knowing that we don't show up because we're like, well, what's the point of showing up if I can't be my whole self because it feels so uncomfortable. go up wearing the mask and we hate it, but we're scared to take the mask off because then they'll know. Oh my gosh, it's a trip. Do you think that your philosophies of connecting to that one person in front of you in this small, know, person to person conversation, do you think that helps with showing up, guess? focusing, rather than focusing on just the worldwide web. 100%. 100%. I mean, we were kind of speaking about this off camera, I feel like for me personally, I have... I kind of believed that if I was going to spread my message, I had to stand on like a stage and talk to people and talk at people. Like literally be like a speaker or something like that. Because there wasn't a lot of, again, evidence of that. And if we think about what I was saying back 2020, right, like personal brand meant one thing. It meant Ted Talks, it meant books. It was like Brene Brown, right? And it was like, OK, where's the evidence of people who are like being known and being seen and putting themselves out there and sharing something important, but they're not just standing on a stage talking at people. And I think that podcasting as an example, has revealed this other option where it's like, wait, my, like, I'm, am now sharing my message with a community who may not know who I am, but I'm doing it in an intimate setting where I'm just speaking to one person or having one conversation. We're having a dialogue, which means that there's two perspectives in the room, which is so much more valuable than one. And so I think that yes, absolutely. If you feel fearful of showing up and sharing widely, then don't. And actually I just, I'm running a program right now and somebody reached out to me and asked me. She said, you know, really want to. leverage this network, but I'm afraid to kind of like post or share with a lot of people watching. And I said, just send someone a DM then or just comment on one person's thread. Like you don't have to be kind of throwing yourself in front of on the stage all the time. Like you can really just have intimate connections and intimate conversations. You just kind of have to go out of your way to create those containers. But it does make all the difference. And slowly but surely you start to see that, OK, that person accepted me, that person received me. For example, I host retreats. didn't mention that. was the other thing. I was thinking about things me and Frank do together, but I also co-host retreats with Caitlin. She's like my retreat business partner. And we co-host these beautiful, beautiful retreats that kind of combine mindset, strategy, energetics. She is like human design trained and like kind of takes a really beautiful lean and like that whole astro, all of that sort of stuff. I don't speak well to that, but if you check her out, you'll know. But she and I have created these spaces where we bring folks together for the retreats. And it's always so interesting because it's like within like two hours of spending time with someone in person, you immediately, it's like you have stripped back like years of layers of hiding because in person you can't hide, right? And in those like one-on-one like intimate spaces you can't hide. So I would look to people who are feeling like I don't want to show up in social media or I feel scared to show up in social media. Put yourself in a situation where you can be seen by somebody one-on-one or in person first and let that be like the evidence that, I was accepted here. it's so interesting because we'll watch folks within our retreats show up and share with one another in a much more candid or personal or kind of dynamic way where they're not just talking business, of course, right? Like we're talking about everything. We're talking about fucking The Bachelor. We're like drinking wine. We're doing whatever. And then that trickles down. And I see the way they show up online is more of that. And they're sharing more of their personhood. And they're sharing more of their selves because they are... they have now evidence that they were accepted for that. And so it's like stretching that muscle and continuing to move forward. And also like you saying, just how... So often we see people doing certain thing and we're like that doesn't feel good to me I don't want to do that and so we think oh we can't I can't do it because I don't want to do it that way but like having that balance of just like Seeing the vision of what would work for you even if you haven't seen it done yet and like trusting that you know it's like I think my past year has been such a journey of like all the business strategy and learning so much and getting so much information but um kind of losing my brand in the in process a little bit of like Becoming a little bit too cookie cutter a little bit too like following, you know, advice, but a little bit too much where I started like you know so I think now I'm at a point of like really you know taking that information learning strategy you know learning the educational side which is so important but then also just like trusting that like myself and the way that I want to show up is safe and is gonna be good too and so yeah I guess my question is like how how you balance that trust of your intuition and also what you know needs to get done with the strategy and the analytics and what you know. For example, what you know will make a real gov... Do well, but still having room for experimentation. Yeah. that's the work, right? That's pretty much exactly what I support folks with is that when you know the strategy, you can just show up as yourself because the strategy is within you versus feeling like you have to always be checking yourself. think that that's something that's really interesting is like a strategy is not a plan. A strategy is not a checklist. A strategy is not like a five steps to. A strategy is an overall approach and a strategy should be created for you by you in a way that is only in alignment with how you move, right? And so when I think about a strategy, it's like there is no such thing as a social media strategy. Like this is the strategy, right? Like, and I think that's how we think of it is like this one kind of like monolith of like the strategy. You must do the Instagram strategy. And it's like that's not all how it works if you you will have your own strategy And so your goal here is to find your own strategy and then to trust yourself to carry it out So you only need to know the information that's relevant to you because the way you create is different than someone else So if you and that goes for a medium as well, right? if you're only creating in a certain style You only need to know how to build out that style in a way that resonates with your people and that you feel proud of Yeah You don't need to worry about any of the other shit and if you have a certain focus for your business the metrics that you're gonna measure for that are gonna be very different than somebody else. You only need to know your shit, right? And so it's always coming down to this piece of the puzzle that's missing, which is you. You need to be making the choices and then you can follow the strategy. But instead, we often think of it as a plan. We think of, I have to follow the plan. And there is this universal plan of what works. And it just isn't true. Yeah, and it goes back to just like you. Like you said, your unique fingerprint and the way that there is only one you. So people, think especially now, like in this day and age, feel like marketing and some of the things are shifting and changing of just like... the humanity and the rawness and authenticity is so much more important than, know, than anything else I feel like, you know, it's like, obviously, like the strategy and all thing is what brings that forward. But, um, and yeah, think it's really easy to just hide behind all of the other more masculine things. Um, so to a more of a personal note, like, what is your, how do you relax outside of your businesses? Like, what is your, you know, your rituals or routines that keep you really centered and really grounded? Um, I know I also want to talk a little bit about your podcast. I love how you're one of your slogans are like dissolving the boundaries between business and pleasure. I want to know what that means to you. Yeah, I mean and it's all really hidden in like what you said what I do to for to enjoy myself is like really interestingly connected to my work, but in a way that's very like pleasure forward but pressure. Non-existent, right? So when I am looking to I have a lot of things that I do to do myself. I'm very like I said, I don't like structure. don't like the intensity of like, at this time I do this, at this time I do that, but I am very ritual oriented. like, I love to write. I spend every morning doing tons of writing. That writing usually bleeds into marketing tasks. That writing sometimes is just creative, is just for me. But I just like, start with just writing, expressing. I start with always like journaling. I start with like kind of visioning type of work. Looking at like, what am I focusing on right now? How can I affirm that? What do I maybe need to work through? What's coming? up for me just in general, maybe unrelated to all that stuff. So just kind of like processing through writing, I love to do anything that I'm like really struggling with like in, um, in a, like maybe a personal capacity or whatever, like that's, always go to writing for that to support with that. And then I also do writing for expressing and know, excavating my perspective. I do writing to build out my offers. I do writing to for my content, but I usually do as much writing as I can. Like that is really like, yeah, that's like my favorite thing to do. And I think through that, a lot of that comes then into. I just like, I love to just like play around on Pinterest and build out cute notion boards. And like, I like to make my digital life look really beautiful. So I often will just kind of play around and like create little like, you know, dashes or decks or things like that. But I enjoy, sometimes I sell them, sometimes I don't, sometimes they're just for me. I love to learn. I, and I, when I say learn, I love to, I love to be held by people who I feel are able to help me with those practices. So helping me to be more creative, helping me to express myself better, helping me to reflect and understand myself better. So I'm often engaged in some kind of course or program where I can like, you know, tap into that and listen. I'll go for a walk and pop that in my ears. Love, love like any kind of like journaling or writing practice that I can get my hands on. So I'm always looking for like new ones to do. But usually I'm doing that through the lens of like, I'm going out to a coffee shop or I'm going and grabbing a glass of wine. I love to walk around the neighborhood and like hop into thrift shops. I love to, and I love to do this shit like whenever I feel like it. Like I want to just like leave my house at 10 a.m. on a work day and go and pop into the thrift store, grab a coffee. I love it. I'm just bopping. I like to like be outside. like to and I would say like I like to I'm not like outdoorsy But I like to just like be out and about you know like I like to be kind of like popping around So yeah, love wine obviously very into that love to travel like we travel a ton We live you know, I'd say very almost half of our life is elsewhere. Yeah, always traveling. always kind of doing something In that sense and that it's so beautiful that I also get to do that for work through the retreats and stuff, too. So Interestingly like it's like basically every single thing I do for pleasure, there would be a version of it that I would also be doing for work. You know? Love it. I know love on your website, you know, just like, what would you do if you wouldn't make money? And like, I think that's just, there's such magic in that when you can really align yourself with that. Yeah. Okay. So as we're ending the podcast, I was wondering what you would give, I love how much you romanticize the art of content creation and look at it as an art, know, both like with what you have to say in the visuals and lighting. It's like also beautiful. Like what would you like a challenge you would give someone? who feels really depleted and uninspired and who wants to just spark up this love for to look at as an art form What would you recommend that people might like start to do or push themselves to you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that the first thing to look at is like what is Your medium. Yeah, so like do you prefer to film do you prefer to take videos? Do you prefer to write do you prefer to design like thinking about all the different ways we can communicate and then even go deeper Do I like to write long form? Do I like to write short form? Do I like to write? Even like video would I prefer to talk on camera? Do I just want to yap and have a pod, right? Like think about the medium that is most natural to you then that's where you should always start because that will probably lead into other things, but you're not going to be able to kind of like get the excitement around it unless you're doing it in the format that you like. And I think what happens often is that we see examples of things that we like. Like you might be scrolling through Instagram and you might be like, I love that reel. That's so cool. That doesn't mean that it's the medium for you because we can like and be attracted to things that we do not innately possess the skill Yeah, and I think that it's really hard sometimes for us like ego wise to just be able to let that be without being like well I want to try and like for sure try like that you can of course if that's so fun play around do whatever But if you're really looking for it to feel good and feel not like work it has to be coming from the place That's natural to you So what is your most natural form of expression and let that be where? Content where it all sparks from and you can like I said if long form is where you where you go you might start with Building a sub stack community, but then that long form content can transit into all kinds of other things, once you have that one kind of base down and that foundation down, it becomes a lot easier to understand what your perspectives are and understand like what is it that you want to share and where else might you be able to share it and what other mediums might jive well with that and that kind of thing. So. Love it. Okay, well before we end, I want to shout out your podcast that you and Frank have been doing for the last couple of months, Love You to the Core. Where was that born? Like what, what, what craving did you guys have to start that new music? in that platform to connect with your audience. So have you asked it in that way because it's very aligned with what I was just saying. Here's the thing that's interesting, right? It's like when you have a few platforms that you show up on and you kind of get used to that and that just becomes like a thing, right? You might start to look around and say, oh, I'd really like to start a sub stack or I'd really like to start a podcast. And it's a medium that's different, right? It's like a format that's different. And so what I usually ask people to consider in that is what are the conversations that you feel like you want to have, but haven't been able to have in the formats that you're already showing up in? And the podcast was the answer to that for us was that I wanted to be able to just gab anything and everything I wanted to be able to say. I'm so obsessed with this book I just read or this movie was so fucked up or whatever. Like I wanted to be able to just like randomly talk about anything and and have bigger conversations that were more like in process. So, for example, something happens in the news or something happens with, you know, the apps. There's been so much going on with that lately for us to be able to just be like, oh, my God, did you hear about this? What do you think? Before having to process like, OK, this is what we do about it. Like being the leader. This it's more about like what I what I feel and think and process before I land in that like leadership. POV and I think that having a space to just like be able to be an excavation of that in conversation with someone who you know, we're having these conversations anyways, and there's so many things that We encounter in our life and even just like you said like we are doing so much like I'm doing the retreats I'm doing the marketing business. I'm doing we're doing the the the hospitality stuff We're doing the wine shop stuff and like where and the travel and all that it's like for me to try to create a Real about every single one of those things. First of all, it just wouldn't fucking Matt like it would just be like A, chaotic for me, but B, also just very chaotic for the audience and just also just like not valuable in that context. But in this context and us being able to sit down and say, here's what's going on this week. Here's how we feel about it. Here's what's happening. Can be actually so helpful because it allows people to see all these different dimensions and learn something from all of them. But I don't have to make it like a part of my platform in order for it to have impact. So I needed space to have conversations that I didn't have space to have. Oh, I love it. Such a beautiful example of just like, yeah, your interest and your curiosities and like not needing like everything to be this like super rational like business plan aspect of it. Well, and it is, know, it is bringing your community closer and getting to see and also getting to know Frank in a way that I feel like people really haven't yet, you know. I people love Frank. So that's so sweet too. But yeah, well, thank you so much. I have one last question for you. ask all my guests, what is one word that you will take with you for this year that symbolizes the energy that you want to step into for 2025? Desire. Oh. That's been a really big one for me. Love it. Thank you so much. Um, how can we find you? Oh my gosh. Okay. So Instagram is Xanthe.Appleyard. Xanthe with an X. So X-A-N-T-H-E dot Appleyard, like the fruit. And my sub stack is XantheAppleyard.substack.com. Our podcast is Love You to the Core. Um, my website is OCR.ca. There's stuff going on there. I highly recommend going to OCR.ca slash Bodega, where that's where you can find like a lot of my resources and templates and programs and things like that. And then also the retreats are cheers to your next chapter. Cheers to your next chapter dot com. And our next one is in Spain at end of the year. So I'm really excited for that. So that's kind what we got going on. Lots of different ways to tap in depending on what you're interested in. You can find the Airbnb link and all of that on my website as well. But yeah, thank you so much for having me. Thank you. It's so great. Oh my gosh. So good. much to ponder on and think about after this convo. Thank you so much. I hope you guys enjoyed the episode as much as I did. I was so thrilled for this conversation. Genuinely, just so many nuggets of wisdom and... Great advice, I am forever grateful for seeing this time and energy and all the love she put into this conversation. Before I let you guys go, I want to remind everybody that my brand, The Meadow is the Portal, is officially launching this Sunday. We have our launch party happening in Los Angeles. If you're in the area, feel free to message me on Instagram to get the deets for the party if you want to come. And yeah, my brand will be available. I have my first couple products. It will be live on Sunday, so make sure to follow the Meadow is a Portal on Instagram for all the live updates and check out the website, themeadowisaportal.com, this Sunday the 16th to have access for the spring launch of the new Meadow blankets and my first couple physical human products that will be able to be worn. I am so excited for you guys to see all the photos I've done for this photo shoot, for this launch. It's been the most incredible experience. I haven't been able to do many of the BTS along this journey because I think I just needed to kind of put my head down and get to work. now that it's launched, I'm excited to share some behind the scenes videos of what it took to get to where I am today. So let me know if that's something you're interested in. And yeah, sending you guys all so much love and I'll see you next week. Bye.